09 November 2008

Why HATE attacks LOVE
Why do hatemongers think it's okay to push their beliefs on others. I am sad Prop 8 passed this past Tuesday. I am however hopeful that with time it will be reversed and we will stop stripping away HUMAN RIGHTS from people regardless of their sexual orientation. I think there will be a day when we can move beyond this kind of pettiness and evolve into a HUMAN RACE that cares about each other rather than plotting defeat for those with other beliefs. Right now, I feel a fundamentalist wind blowing debris of hate over this great Nation. Go buy your pop tarts and build your bunkers and teach your children to hate....true love will never be defeated... my God teaches me that. I also want to say a word to those who post anon comments or untraceable comments...I don't post them unless I know where they come from. END OF STORY. I also cannot believe the idiocy of some of the comments...really, it's best if you go back home, lick your wounds and educate yourself. Real change is not built on hate...that sort of thing will never survive the times...only LOVE can make real change happen.
UPDATE: well well, this has become quite the controversy...

41 comments:

Lisa S said...

Amen!!!!

insanemommy said...

Exactly! I would like to know WHY they (hatemongers!) are so consumed with trying to destroy others lives? Do they just not feel good about themselves unless they are tearing down another human being? Why I ask do they care? How in the hell does this effect their lives? Really! Don't toss bible verses at me as I do not believe it is our place to judge anyone! PERIOD. I call this Satan at work. Get a life you hateful people. Work on your own marriage and stay out of their lives. Yes, I hope this is overturned and never to be seen on the ballot AGAIN. This one makes me sad for my gay friends and family members. I'm on their side. Equal rights for all!

Mamacita said...

Yup. I totally agree. I posted this very same thing this week. That is a lovely picture of Portia and Ellen too.

Doreen said...

Something's in the air! There seems to be a great deal of hatemongers leaving untracable comments on peoples blogs. I just hope it won't make the "good" bloggers go private. It sickens me the way people feel the need to aggresively push their ill feelings on the rest of the world!

Doreen in Montreal single mom to Faith-Jiangxi & Mia-Sichuan

Michelle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Casey said...

Beautiful picture! Couldn't agree more.

Casey
http://birdieandthequeenbee.blogspot.com

bytheriver said...

Yep - I for one do not believe my marriage is threatened by allowing people who have lived together in a committed relationship - at times for 20 years - to be able to be at each other's death beds and transfer property. Equal rights for all.

Virginia said...

I've always loved your blog and I think it's been a while since I've commented but I just have to ask..

Simply because I may not necessarily agree, personally, even though I have never used my blog or any other public forum to speak negatively against any group of people or about those who think differently than I do, that makes ME a "hatemonger"? If that's not what you're implying please, please feel free to correct me.

Lost and Found said...

Great post and I agree 100%. I also love that picture of Ellen and Portia. If we are truly a free nation then we should be free to live life how we individually choose whether or not that goes against the average Joe. We need to continue to be a progressive nation that supports the individuality of each of us and supports our similarities and differences. Whoever thought women could get the vote, wear pants and go to work? We must continue to educate ourselves and those around us to our children grow up in a place that dictates equality and respect for all who give it.

fourlittlehawks said...

"Hatemongers" are to be found on both sides of this issue, as some of the comments on your blog clearly reflect.

~ Jen

Cavatica said...

It is sad to see people voting to limit rights. So very sad.

J said...

You are so right Hayley. Their argument has always been that allowing gays to marry will "destroy the institution of marriage." How is that so? Can someone please explain this to me? I don't see Ellen & Portia's marriage as having any effect whatsoever on mine. Nor would the marriage of some of our gay friends, whom we actually know and socialize with, have any effect on my marriage. If anything, I think this STRENGTHENS the institution of marriage. Isn't more happy, strong marriages a good thing? Isn't it better that children be raised by two people who love each other and are committed to their relationship? Someday our country will be embarrassed by the hatred and intolerance it has displayed over the past decade when it comes to this issue. I already am.

Snowflowers Mum said...

we do not hate, we feel sorry for those less enlightened.

Anna B. said...

Hayley,

I thought only love would rule at the end of the day....but Michelle (whom you 'allowed' to comment) is saying she Hates.Them. (the people who voted Yes on 8 (I would have been one of them))

Prop 8 was not about Hate. If some chose, in their fight to pass it, then shame on them. Gay relationships are not discriminated against. They are afforded protection under the law and provided access to partner's health insurance benefits. Look up the California code.

You can love and embrace people of different sexual orientation and still vote Yes on 8...without being a hatemonger. Those who make it out to be such are as guilty as they claim the supporters to be.

Snowflowers Mum said...

anna

wanna talk legislation? One of my best friends is one of the highest regarded experts in the Nation, you might have seen her on CNN? I wont out her, but you have it wrong on this one.

want the details? I'd be happy to share.

fourlittlehawks said...

"I wanted to run over those idiots who stood on every street corner in my town holding their stupid "Yes on 8" signs. Hate. Them."

Super enlightening, thanks!!

~ Jen

Snowflowers Mum said...

hey Jen...what keeps you coming back? I don't understand your obsession?

I just visited your blog...but I didn't post a comment because there is nothing of interest to me there.

unless you have something of interest to say...stay away.

fourlittlehawks said...

I've actually followed your blog for quite some time, as I follow several blogs of fellow adoptive families. While I would consider the term "obsessed" to be a little much, I've enjoyed your family stories and lately the political discussions. I've never left an angry comment or been snarky in any way, so I'm at a loss to understand your remarks. I AM sorry to hear how utterly disinteresting I am, that was a real blow. Perhaps I need a snappier layout, would that help at all? ;)
Certainly I will respect your wishes and not comment again on your blog - even if I do manage to conjure up something interesting to say. Which isn't likely, is it?
Be Well,
Jen

Snowflowers Mum said...

Zai Jian Jen...

Snowflowers Mum said...

let me ask...where do these people come from?

I don't know them, perhaps they find themselves here through blogsurfing...who knows.

perhaps I was a little hard on Jen...but then again...I really don't need the additional sarcasm...now if there was some intelligent banter along with the sarcasm then I'm all ears!

Barbie said...

Honestly I still check in on your blog but mainly just to see what you are hating this week. You never cease to amaze me. I will pray for you and your heart to be as soft for God as much as you proclaim it is for people.

Mei Mei Journal said...

I recently started following a blogger who is currently tackling the issue of gay adoption from a biblical perspective, very interesting! Check it out:
expandingalbertsons.blogspot.com

Our pastor at our previous church and I once discussed this issue. His best friend lives in another state with his partner. The pastor and his often family visited the couple and were close to them. His perspective was that he felt homosexuality is a sin, but that we are all sinners. It is our job to love, not judge.

I don't know why anyone would want to limit the rights of others.

J said...

If it's not hate, then what is it? Is it scorn? Derision? Disgust? Disapproval? No matter what you call it, if you oppose same-sex marriage, you are saying that these people don't deserve the same rights that you and all the rest of us straight people have. And if you live in California and you voted "yes" on Prop. 8, you are acknowledging that they currently have (or had, I should say) the same rights as you, and you wanted those rights taken away. That's hateful in my book.

Please, tell me (and I am serious) -- how does two gay people getting married have anything to do with you? How does it harm the institution of marriage? Even if you think that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong (something many people would quarrel with, but that's another question), how can you impose your beliefs on their marriage? Inside their family? It's just wrong.

BTW, the fight is far from over in CA. At least three lawsuits have been filed against Prop. 8. One was filed by the same couple that brought the suit that went all the way to the state supreme court & resulted in the ruling that overturned CA's statutory ban on same-sex marriage. This couple is arguing, once again, that it is an unconstitutional violation of their civil rights for the haters in CA to tell them they can't get married. Good luck to them, I say!

Snowflowers Mum said...

aaah Barbie, I don't hate, I leave that up to the misguided like you...you seem to have a handle on it beautifully.

My God is clearly very different from yours.

preach to your own.

My prayers are for all humankind, not the pious

Barbie said...

Ahhh Hayley, there you go again. I stand assured that my God has already spoken and I place all of my faith on the WORD of GOD. Man can change but His word never does. Where did you get the idea I hate Hayley? I know all were created equal, in His image and His desire is for us to desire to be like Him. There is only one God and He is a God of love but he also is so much more. Love and acceptance do not go hand in hand all of the time. Just because one is not willing to accept something does not mean they hate. For instance, there are behaviors my children have that I will not tolerate and accept but they nor I ever question my love for them.

And by the way I do not hate you. You are a wonderful mother, a wonderful friend, wonderful wife but we just happen to disagree on quite a few things. Just as Obama won because the majority of voters wanted him in office, the majority did not want to accept gay marriage. The vote speaks for itself. But I would welcome anyone into my home and love them and care for them but not tolerate certain behaviors in my home. If you call that hate then I am sorry. I think many would disagree.

Yoli said...

Hayley, you owe no one an explanation. Compassion and understanding is not in their vocabulary. Only absolutes. They pass those off as religion.

J said...

Equating the love between two women with misbehavior by a child is not meaningful.

Barbie, Hayley doesn't hate. Hayley speaks out when she sees injustice, and over the past few months, when she has seen people spreading lies as the truth. If she didn't speak out when she saw something wrong, what kind of person would she be? If she just sat back and watched it and let it slide by without comment, she may as well be spreading the lies and intolerance herself.

Virginia said...

Hayley,

Thank you for responding to my comment. I realize that you owe no one, certainly not me, any explanations, clarifications or whatever. I guess when I hear the word "hatemonger" being thrown around it just feels like such a strong word and some the other comments sounded somewhat hateful in themselves that I just had to say something. It's sad and unfortunate that it always seems to dissolve into something like this comment section has with issues like these. I respect your opinion and your views. I believe that you are a good and loving and intelligent person, and your beautiful girls will grow up to be wonderful human beings as well.

insanemommy said...

J -- yes, they call that sheep. Just following the pact..... It's wrong. I can not for the life of me understand why people feel they need to stick their noses in where it does not belong. I wonder how they'd feel if their marrage was questioned? Insane!

Barbie said...

Somehow this has all turned into slamming Christianity. Sad. None of you are any better than what you are accusing us of being. Gladly stepping aside and like it or not, I will be praying.

mskajlc said...

Can someone explain to me WHY Prop 8 was put to a vote to begin with? WHY should a persons human rights be voted on?

Can you imagine the uproar if there was a Prop 9 stating from now on, no interracial couples.. period. It would never make it to a vote because its discrimination, just as Prop 8 is. But, 65 years ago it probably would have passed if put to a vote. Shows how far this country has come and it shows how rediculous Prop 8 is.

I dont care if someone doesnt agree with same sex marriage. It doesnt mean they should be given a right to vote on taking away someone elses rights.

Believe me, I see way more heterosexual couples that have no business being married than I do gay couples. I know, I have been a wedding Officiant for 17 yrs. In our State gay couples can be joined in a Civil Union, but they do not have the right to call it a marriage. Thats just wrong.

Snowflowers Mum said...

Lets not make the mistake of saying this is a Christian vs everyone else issue...that would be wrong. There are Christians on BOTH sides of this argument...BOTH sides.

kitchu said...

I am someone who believes in Christ, and I don't believe anyone was slamming Christ nor those who follow him- but I do think there seems to be a narrowing view or a selective "hearing" on his teachings. And it's easy to think that we as Christians have the cornerstone on what those teachings are- I would be the last to proclaim that I fully understand what God has entrusted to us- I would be a fool to think my ways are his, or that I am capable with my human heart and mind to comprehend the heart and mind of God. What I DO know is that his greatest commandment was this: that we LOVE ONE ANOTHER- inherent in that is that we embrace one another AS WE ARE (and I guess in that vain this also goes for everyone arguing here, so maybe it's time to let our guards down a bit,eh?). I am certain that God himself would stand up for equal rights for all humans. I am certain that God makes no mistakes- I am certain that everything, including gay men and women, were beautifully and wonderfully made by God, conceived in the mind of God, just as all of us were, before we ever came to be-there is a purpose for every life on earth- life itself is sacred. Who are we, who are any of us, to strip away the rights of others? We once believed we had the right to enslave our African American brothers and sisters... what's the real difference here? In essence, is none. You're still taking basic human rights away from a select group of people based on (in this case), sexual preference not skin color.

I think the argument that it doesn't effect others lives is a weak argument- I'm not a "live and let live" person- I do believe in right and wrong. There are some absolutes out there. But on this, I'm sorry- it's just wrong. We have no right whatsoever to deny 2 people who love one another of the same sex the same rights that we are afforded as heterosexuals.

And maybe I'm wrong, and maybe the Jesus that taught me to love my neighbor as myself, and to love my enemy, and to turn the other cheek, and to forgive 70 x 7, and to wash the feet of the one who will betray me,- well, I think Jesus would agree. I think he would have stood up for the homosexuals on this one.

Snowflowers Mum said...

thanks for the support...both in my comments and via email. I know quite a few people from my original DTC group who don't want to get into a 'who supports who' match with the others in the group that clearly have 'spoken' so they have left messages of support via email...thank you.

Mamacita said...

Barbie,
This conversation does sound a lot like slamming Christianity. Unfortunately the majority of people who are opposed to gay marriage are doing it because they feel it is "God's Word" that they are protecting. It is natural for us to lash out against that because the Religious Right is a powerful force in this country. That does not mean that all Christians are driven by fear or hate. Some are.

You may see us as being "no better" than you, you said that we were hate mongers too, but we are not trying to limit your human rights. People who are voting against gay marriage are in fact, trying to limit other peoples human rights. And that does make me feel like a better person than you. Sorry if you feel insulted. (Did you know that in the 60s black people couldn't marry white people?) How is that different than the attrocity being passed off as law now?

Why are you (the collective of people who are against gay marriage) trying to dole out "God's Judgement" anyway? Shouldn't you let God handle that? If God truly believes that gay marriage is a sin, then let him sort out the issue. Its not your job.

Jesus believed in love. Love for everyone; even prostitutes, and beggers, and the wealthy and yes, even the gay people. Old Testament "law" is no longer valid after Jesus came. Love is the law for Jesus.

I am ready to TAKE JESUS BACK from Christians like you who feel the need to judge everyone. And yes, I am being judgemental by saying that about you....but I'm not trying to take away any of your human rights either. You have the right to be just as sanctimonious as you want to be. You have the right to do whatever you want, until you try to harm others. But when you start messing with other people's lives and rights, then I want to stand up and get involved. The U.S.A. is not just made up of Christians. There are good people of all nations and religions (or no religion) in every corner of this place. They deserve freedom from your religion. That's why the founding fathers came here....to get away from religious persecution. That's why we have separation of church and state....or at least TRY to have separation of church and state. Unfortunately, lately Church seems to be getting involved in state a lot. In many other countries, it is no one's business what religion their politician is....they govern outside of their faith so as to better understand all peoples.

So finally, I will pray for you too. And I say that in an incredibly sarcastic tone....because I'm so tired of hearing it from people like you. The "weapon" of the offer of prayer is wielded by many Christians as an ugly end to the conversation. I doubt very seriously that there is ever any open-hearted and loving prayer actually happening. "I'll pray for you" is an incedibly powerful tool used to end a conversation and in essence tell the other person, "You are SO wrong that only God can sort you out." Its insulting and used when you don't know anything better to say.

Now, I will offer a prayer...a sincere and loving prayer to God. A prayer that people's hearts will be opened by love and compassion. A prayer that people will allow love to rule. A prayer that people will allow God to sort out the sinners and let the judgement lie in His hands.

"Do unto others as you would have done to you." What if someone told you that you were not allowed to marry the person you loved? How horrible.

Hayley,
Sorry I wrote so much. I just couldn't stop. I'm so frustrated by this all. It honestly makes me question my faith....(not in God, but in Christians) and that is sad.

mama d said...

At my friends' wedding the brides were Fire and Ice (it was a masquerade ball) and this was their first dance:
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be in time
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.

Snowflowers Mum said...

mama d

I agree, but it seems others like to challenge that thought...

limiting Gods love and intentions by proclaiming, their way or no way

the Beatles had it right the first time

Barbie said...

Ok. There is obvious two sides to this issue as there are to most issues. First, I want to apologize for offending some of you. Like Hayley, I too am outspoken at times and say things without thinking them through. Not necessarily a bad thing but not always good either.

To me there are some absolutes but I also realize I have no authority to be the final judge. I am just someone who considers the issues in the bible absolute. But I also realize there are other Christians who read the same bible and interpret it differently. But I would assume that most Christians know that God LOVES but is also just and that he does correct us. Where he stands on this issue is for many of us to disagree on. That is ok. Yet, I know in my earlier wording I was probably too judgmental. God has corrected me in that area. And I really am sorry for being so abrupt.

I do want to point out that I was not using "I will pray" as a threat or what have you. I did pray and will continue to do so, that His will be done whatever that is.

I too believe that this will be overturned. I am fine with that as long as the voices of others are heard. To tell one person to think as you do is wrong in both circumstances. I think how we treat one another on these issues says a whole lot more about us than which side we are on.

And because of THAT I apologize.

insanemommy said...

"I am just someone who considers the issues in the bible absolute".

So if I were to believe that “the bible is absolute” and homosexuality is an abomination (not disputing-- states it in the bible) what about the others?

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death? He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9) Hmmm, I bet children would think twice the next time they spouted off to their parent’s!

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18) How should we enforce this?


The Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination. DO NOT eat that delicious morsel you will be punished. (Leviticus 11:10) ??

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45) Thank goodness slavery was abolished!

Why are some so tolerant of the abominations but homosexuality? Why do we not spend millions and legislate to make all of the Bible's "eternal and true" words constitutional amendments.

Yes, it's perfectly clear to me. It's all in the name of Christ. Must remember to get the other abominations on the ballot next election. Can you imagine being persecuted for eating your favorite lobster dinner?

I’m not buying it's in the name of “love”……not today. Not tomorrow. This is nothing more than discrimination against gays. Against our fellow brothers and sisters.

Calico Sky said...

What a beautiful picture! I'm happy they have found each other.

What I've learned in life is that one can never be threatened by happiness or love, they are both blessings that we should embrace and cherish. The love that exists between friends, siblings, families and then lovers is a priviledge. If only all that felt loved had the ability to show it in the way in which they see fit.

JMCS said...

I agree, it was a sad, sad day. Why can't people just allow other people to be happy? It's not hurting them, so why should they hurt others? I really hope things change soon. Everyone should be allowed to be happy with whomever they choose to have a relationship with.

Hugs,
Jonni